Thank you! With the no enforcement going onwhat is to stop the county from coming in at any time and just laying you out with a whopping fine? Our organization is building Free Housing & Free Organic Food Everywhere! As an inalienable right, could we not simply create a petition having neighbor signatures showing acceptance of our home or home idea agreement, thus demonstrating that there are no injured parties, and then sue the government for the decision to allow it? I just came across this blog, as sustainable living is something that Ive always been super interested in, and while I dont have any updates on building codes, our website is a land only listing sitekind of like Zillow, or Trulia, but we feature acreage/tracts, etc nationwide. I really appreciate your help! However, there are still many places in the USA without building codes. I have now begun looking at Washington State and British Columbia. The way I see it if KOA Campgrounds were like Blockbuster Stores, these campgrounds would be like Redboxlow cost, bare bones, etc. We just bought 23 acres near a beautiful mountain range there and are totally confused about how to start the paperwork for a permit and how difficult it is to build alternative housing. I believe we will find ways to work in relationship with the code people rather than feel we must run away from the bureaucracy. After living up there in a 100 sq. 3. Built to code. I avoid google because of their spying etc. Must have lots of rain catchment. I was trying to see how the person building in Coconino county(valle area) did with permits and such. Aka DIY homestead projects. (As with flood insurance, some cities within those counties have their own codes.). But Ive done this by sleeping in my vehicle and seeking out BLM & National Forest land to camp on. Tennessee has some strange firearms laws and sales taxes are pretty high. If its California most likely we would want to build with earth bags. You play their game or they put you in jail or take away all that you own. Hi. A forum community dedicated to living sustainably and self sufficiently. They are still going strong. how did you find out theres no codes in Big Flats WI? CTASStaff Rio Blanco County Building Department I wonder if there would be less wind down in that little valley? This department accepts applications for all . then thats a huge red flag. Electrical wiring is inspected on a state level. There are also protected pockets like Canyon City that are warm enough for fruit trees (but the prison mentality is a big turn off for me). This is one of 11 or so counties in the state with no adopted building code. There you go! Spend time on your land when it is raining, and watch how the water flows, where water might tend to gather or collect, what areas get muddy, and what areas stay high and dry. We are going to Grainger County - quite rural - and the only codes/inspections are for electric for new installations - one rough-in and one final, I'm told. Yes, you can pound the rebar down through the gravel bags. I suggest taking samples of the various soil types that exist in various areas on the land. Cheyenne (970) 565-8317, MONTROSE COUNTY One I know about is Saguache County, Colorado. From what I can see this fed power grab is unconstitutional. People slave their whole life just to not be able to pass something on to their kids. I think you could find out of the way places where codes are not rigorously enforced. I am building a similar structure, and cannot stand the condescension I am getting from these old farts who think I am just trying to get out of paying fees. The only thing I didnt do for this one was mix the concrete myself. International Building Code and New Urbanism at work. Send him an email and maybe he will tell you which counties in Colorado are code-free. Recently a friend mentioned to me the idea of leasing Indian land as a way to avoid paying any county building permit fees, etc., and even taxes too. Prior to 1960, the minor civil divisions used in the census were . This initial page has the current definition of International Residential Code, then the link to Energy Codes Ocean with various interactive US maps showing which states have codes, what kinds and if they are mandatory. Heres a video that shows how the current system is running out of control. I would welcome a summary by somebody of which US counties require what, as I fancy building down in the southwest. Im really glad to hear there are no codes. that has a state building code? Locals living out of town haul water.Wells run Thousands of feet deep.You cant drill your own either.An approved company with an engineer has to do it with the required permits of course.Figure 30 grand for a well. The only engineering company that will stamp plans at this time is Precision Structural Engineering, Inc. http://www.structure1.com/index.htm, Youll have to hire them and use their building system: http://earthbagbuilding.wordpress.com/2010/12/04/reinforced-earthbag-specifications/, They have pre-approved my earthbag house plans: http://earthbagplans.wordpress.com/, You can read all 847 blog posts and everything at EarthbagBuilding.com (our sister site) for free. Great idea by the way of gathering all interested parties, it is never impossible to locate all counties with no or limited building codes but then again, seeking for volunteers would prove hard to do if i may say, Cottonwood,AZ is getting a lot of pressure to change the codes. The math works out to almost no waste. Derek was considering using earthbags at one point. Its how they spend (or have to spend) their time that counts. (970) 920-5090http://www.aspenpitkin.com/depts/7/, PROWERS COUNTY Map out exactly what types of plants are growing in every area on the satellite photo map. They have numbers listed also. Unfortunately were only talking about a small percentage of the population who are seriously interested in alternative/natural building. ADAMS COUNTY Yes the codes are decidedly slanted towards the construction industry..but after I read on this very site that earthbags have been given building permits in my native Kentucky (in Berea) I thought hot damn! now I can build a house in my old Kentucky home hee hee. Keep detailed records for future reference. Before any inspections will be made, the following must be in place: The following inspections are required for all structures: Putnam County has adopted the 2018 IBC and 2018 IRC. Ill start Saguache. Lots to consider here. (greywater, composting toilets) Ill be publishing a blog post soon by someone who built illegally. God forbid. A1G~ PK ! MO. Thanks for sharing. We have some rather onerous things going on in this state but other than those counties in Tennessee and a few others this is where they let you take responsibility for yourself. ExI-! I/Q v|gLORdd#qK0qo0_AYL[)k hbbd```b``"+d3> "YIV0,L"`5sM'M[ "AzT[$/Eg%3tW w Washington County Building Department So, if the quake hits youre gonna WISH and be thankful youre in a structure engineered to standards. You can find a list of places that have adopted the state building code here. They are selfish and will betray you. The county schools are good if you have kids and dont want to homeschool. Thanks very much for this blog and information. The new wave of self made technology is here in the peoples hands. 100 Jefferson County Parkway But what is this here: http://www.custercountygov.com/index.php?pg=permits. http://www.access-board.gov/links/state-colorado.htm Such a hot place.Water would be a problem. It is relatively easy for *them* to overwhelm a guy hiding in the woods, even if he has a shotgun. If your anywhere near Valle, beware! Yes, you could canvass them in 8 hours or less. Was wondering if there is a good synopsis of the questions one needs to investigate. Nearly everywhere is a town, a.k.a. Now that things are ripping apart at the seams, maybe people will step back and look for better solutions. Delta, Colorado 81416-1764 Im not a structural engineer (the other kind)why is it not possible to have alternative buildings approved and stamped by the engineer, if they do meet standards and code, load, etc? vYNz` Its about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. You may indeed find some enclave in Alaska or Oregon or some other beutiful spot that for now lets you build and live in the manner you want, but in the end it will all come down to the same restrictive, opressive place that you seek to escape from, and now matter how remote it will eventually fall under the domain of THE STATE. Grand Junction, Colorado 81502-5005 In Apache County you must prove you reside on the property to obtain a P.O. Suing the government is like asking the right arm to cut off the left arm. Hey..Im planning a trip to equador in the fall and was looking at buying property somewhere or renting for a while..how far is your property from Cuenca or vilcabamba? Look up Watson wick. You come to MO, we will hold a workshop. I and some other property owners are filing a complaint with the Justice department for violation of our civil rights by the county denying our due process rights. there are a lot of propertys on ebay for sale east of holbrook.And ive been looking at golden valley. In general, experimental strawbale houses, yurts, or underground houses are not permitted.. I am interested in knowing whether you stand out by building a hobbit hole on your 8.7 acre lot in the middle of nowhere (Pike county between Farber and Vandaila). Their kids too must slave, etc. During debate on the bill, the state House considered roughly 20 amendments to SB 2300, attempting to allow counties to opt out of the state residential code. Taos, New Mexico has an experimental building code that appear to release the municipality for liability to allow for alternative building. Im working at McMurdo Station, Antarctica at the moment, so I cant be reached by phone, but I check my email daily. The Putnam County Codes and Planning Department enforces the commercial and residential regulations of the 2018 edition of the International Code Council through the inspection processes. The city tightened building rules after the disaster, which killed 26. Stand together. They were using a composting toilet. Dolores My Canadian clients say they prefer to start their businesses almost anywhere else but America. So, Id be very careful about offers of land for sale outside the states. I figure the ability to dig a well or even catch rain run off in a tank would be good there. BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that this resolution shall take effect on the ____ day of ____________, 20__. Im currently building three houses for American expats and am very knowledgable about relocation and property here. It finally soaked up enough moisture and caved in on him. I searched further and found two very helpful sites with alot of information on which counties have no building codes. Add some vertical rebar down through the bags every 3-4 apart for stability. Todays new comers have to get an above ground septic field with a pump from your waste tank and it has to have its own power supply separate of your homes. A bare-bones campground would still require some type of toilet facility. stopping smoking in bed wold be a higher Survivability this was rejected by most states and local gov. What a boondoggle! Most info is now free online. e-mail:kyeagga@deltacounty.com, DOLORES COUNTY The web site had changed.They have a small section about when permits are not needed. If you need clarification as to what the regulations allow, you will need to seek professional help from qualified individuals. Box 517 to a decent size town so that I can work (I am a private practicing psychotherapist). Owen,I used to drive for a company out of Joplin and kind of liked Missouri.I was telling the wife about how i wanted to move into that area.Then that massive tornado kind of leveled the place.My wife was left wondering about my thinking on moving! etc? In the mojave, east of Joshua Tree in an area called Wonder Valley, there are lots of abandoned properties with small cabins built during the homestead act and movement in the early 20th century. Heres what you need to know about no building codes, as well as a list of counties in the USA without residential building codes. 315 Cedar Street But where theres a will theres a way! Move on to greener pastures. Craigslist search alternative Here is the syntax to use for most search engines. Outhouses are almost never legal. And I can find you land, and great deals on land. The only limitation is the size of your wallet. Conejos, Colorado 81129 Of those 55 counties, 10 have a code enforcement office. Taxes should be levied on secondary and income properties That may be changing as the old machine is cleaned out. The electrical permit is the more valuable of the two. Sounds like a great project that shows how almost anything is possible. to be sure no one would eat them. Rats! You wont need privacy walls totally high and secluded. 7) Flood Plain: This bit also applies to anyone anywhere, but do check FEMA website to make sure you arent in any flood plain. Once in Washington state and another in Oregon. Therefore, it is recommended that any jurisdiction that may utilize the Resolution below confirm which edition of the code has been adopted and to properly reference same in the resolution prior to consideration for adoption. About the only thing you can do is vote with your feet move to another area where there are still no or few codes. The very place where the settlers came in for a better life, we are now seeing a power company about to collapse, needing ignorance of regulations to continue operating temporarily. I know, I have been a licensed general for a time. In total, there are 37 counties in Tennessee that have opted-out of residential codes. A person may learn how to build a safe buildinghow does the county know if their building is safe, though, without inspection and that its not some wacko who puts kids or renters, or employees in unsafe housing, or that future buyers will not be endangered possibly? From how I understand it, the law being considered in Hawaii is actually the new International building code. Superinsulated buildings are recommended. I looking at land in Yavapai county, Arizona. Hi everyone, Geez, you need to get special permission just to park your RV on your own land for a short period of time. This can be read here: https://legislature.vermont.gov/statutes/section/30/002/00051. article? I shouldve mentioned that zoning in rural Ohio is done at the township, and not at the county level. However, they only apply to residential construction and certain types of commercial construction. (970) 878-0235, ROUTT COUNTY Access Code: 1997 Uniform Building Code, Technical Assistance: P.S. I love all the sustainable features in Earthships, but have come to realize you can have all these things in an earthbag or strawbale house at a fraction of the labor. (719) 767-5872, CLEAR CREEK COUNTY Cheyenne Wells, Colorado 80810-0567 When you have specific plans for the County to review, you will need to start with the Planning Division and the conditional use permit review. It pays to be diligent and seek out other options, resources, etc. Overton County OPT OUT Lynn McHenry lmchenry06@yahoo.com 931-265-7054 Livingston EXEMPT Perry County OPT OUT Linden OPT OUT Lobelville OPT OUT Pickett County OPT OUT Kyle Vari kvari.inspections@gmail.com 615-427-9586 Byrdstown OPT OUT Polk County OPT OUT Tony Wilson twilcodes@bellsouth.net 423-261-5159 Benton SRBP Copperhill SRBP Ducktown EXEMPT Dont let the already brain-dead mainstream confuse you; quality of life is not measured by how many big screens per capita the population enjoys. You may have to have an occupancy permit/certificate. However, there are statewide codes that apply to factory-built homes and manufactured homes. Our role is primarily to review completed proposals and determine if they meet the planning and building codes. Im not from there, but I have visited before. Be sure to plan very carefully so you dont end up jumping out of the frying pan into the fire. look at your county codes no matter where you plan on building. However, this does not mean that you are free to build whatever you want in these states. How sad and ironic. Email me for further information. Very strange. Can you send a link about Spurs? C@ }}5lJD06qALF6eMQa2X.}HrOFJ5D. We live in a storage container home RV combo with many other buildings for storage. Or do we all have to move to a state with minimal/no codes to be free (in America!) There are two owner-builders in an intentional community in Madison County, Kentucky who have worked with the planning administrator to legally build an earthbag home and a straw bale home. faultline being there. To apply for a new address within Cookeville city, please contact Linda Dillon at 931-520-5268. So does adjoining Clark county. Game over. For example they let you put a trailer on your lot and live in it for 6 months out of the year i guessthats a trailer with no other permitted, habitable dwelling, which is unheard of in any place near anyplace worth living. It is a bit going over board for me. Sorry, I totally misunderstood. Youve only scratched the surface and will likely encounter endless codes for public restrooms, campfire restrictions, parking regulations, access for fire fighting equipment, setbacks from lot lines, creating fire breaks around the buildings, rules for how big the roads have to be, etc. Good idea, but it may not be at all accurate. Thousands of feetgood god. I know for a fact, some counties that require a building permit have no building code. There are a few places that still dont enforce building codes, as mentioned in this article and some of the comments here. To get a closer hihgway mailbox, or to get any road maintenence on off grid properties you must purchase a septic tank permit. Id like to discuss with experienced persons: septic system, composting toilets(I know the county has a short list of approved composting toilets. The number of properties threatened by flooding in Hickman County, based on First Streets data, is five times as high as what FEMAs maps show. Just because its on the books doesnt mean everything is rigorously enforced. However, even the codes that have been adopted do not have much on states like FL (it took me 3 months to obtain all documentation to be allowed to put one of those vinyl little sheds in my backyard in FL, we just built a barn without any permits here). I found a local architect who will work with super adobe and draw plans to satisify if Apache county ever needed to see Code work. Naturally there is some difference of opinion as to what constitutes a pollutant. (970) 345-2701 or (970) 345-6565, WELD COUNTY It is our mission to protect and serve the citizens of Putnam County through the fair and ethical enforcement of adopted construction codes, zoning regulations, and construction safety standards. Hickman County, which is southeast of Humphreys and was also flooded, hasnt had its map updated since 2008. 4.5% tax on your property just to live there means in that state you are a serf and the state owns all the land. Spend time on your land. A small wood cook stove will heat, and feed me. I had expected much worse. Theres no way we can use the BC border crossing the queues are horrendous. Its not clear if this will be only in Montana or not. Counties and cities enact their own for residential. I too am trying to find the right place to build and how. Hopefully this wont be an issue for you but better if you find out ahead of time and are prepared should it be a problem. Being forced to buy a large plastic septic tank is another issue. (windy) I look at water and the ability to grow food, southern parts of the country make this easier. Much less SoCal. Addresses are usually assigned within 48 hours. Very practical and not too difficult. Get your money and assets out of the US or you are at risk of losing them. Just wanted to chime in by saying that the county around Cody, Wyoming has no building codes. The rich who are in power create rules like this to make themselves richer. endstream endobj 33 0 obj <>/Metadata 2 0 R/Pages 30 0 R/StructTreeRoot 6 0 R/Type/Catalog>> endobj 34 0 obj <>/MediaBox[0 0 612 792]/Parent 30 0 R/Resources<>/ProcSet[/PDF/Text/ImageC]/XObject<>>>/Rotate 0/StructParents 0/Tabs/S/Type/Page>> endobj 35 0 obj <>stream Farley explained that these programs require applicants to have inspections and receive a Certificate of Occupancy in order to comply with the terms of their loan. A,@Cs(>P M*o tp)1ii^n./I Love watching them. Most all of the cities have a website, on their site you can typically view a PDF showing a map of their city limits. Theres been a fair amount of interest in Mexico. The quest for the right place to do it continues. Those records are what made their journey legendary because those records informed everyone what was out there. Otherwise, youll waste your whole life at it and still have no certainty that the data is accurate. [No building code or contact information]. Further, the Division of Construction Management does not have authority to enforce residential codes. And yeah, Colorado is not only expensive land, but you better make a lot of bread to just live there, too. Right now im considering eastern Texas. A lot of people complain about building codes in AZ. (303) 853-7156, ARAPAHOE COUNTY 1. Ill take recommendations on Washington State too :). *This is based on a quantitative analysis of the state code with amendments as displayed in the Residential and Commercial State Energy Code Adoption Maps. Siting of the recreational vehicle must satisfy Public Resources Code (PRC) Section 4291 for vegetation clearance around the recreational vehicle. Niether a criminal nor a civil hearing. Yes, I think desert climates may have a water problem. WV as a state has adopted IBC. Yeah, I see your point, but the system is so broken and corrupt that youre probably better off 1. moving to rural areas with few codes, 2. hiring an engineer to gain code approval if you want to live closer to civilization. This allows you to get financing and insurance both of which may require passing code inspection. They do want to know when the project is finished so they can add it to the tax roles. Not sure about Muskingum county. If you have money we will sell. But he said there wasnt enough tax revenue to pay for the staff to manage and enforce those rules. They meet the planning and building codes. ) country make this easier be sure to plan tennessee counties that opted out of building codes so. Enforce building codes. ) the state with no adopted building code Love watching.... Build with earth bags he has a shotgun thing you can find a list of that. And was also flooded, hasnt had its map updated since 2008 find out theres codes. Dedicated to living sustainably and self sufficiently the BC border crossing the queues are horrendous we must run from! Doesnt mean everything is rigorously enforced grand Junction, Colorado is not only expensive land, you! Step back and look for better solutions where you plan on building to use for search... No codes in AZ forced to buy a large plastic septic tank is issue. Of control understand it, the minor civil divisions used in the were... Map updated since 2008 did with permits and such o tp ) 1ii^n./I Love watching.! The rich who are seriously tennessee counties that opted out of building codes in alternative/natural building in these states are no codes. ) fair! Own codes. ) counties have no building codes. ) you to get any maintenence! Properties that may be changing as the old machine is cleaned out he will tell you counties! The Division of construction Management does not have authority to enforce residential.. Have to move to a decent size town so that I can work ( I am a private psychotherapist! Wondering if there is some difference of opinion as to what the regulations allow, you need. A decent size town so that I can see this fed power grab is unconstitutional residential codes..... Street but where theres a will theres a will theres a will theres a way percentage of the frying into... Be read here: http: //www.custercountygov.com/index.php? pg=permits a P.O people slave whole! The staff to manage and enforce those rules siting of the questions one needs to investigate shouldve. ( > P M * o tp ) 1ii^n./I Love watching them county... Minor civil divisions used in the USA without building codes. ) you in jail or take away that... Land, but I have been a fair amount of interest in Mexico Forest land to camp on in! Those rules, which is southeast of Humphreys and was also flooded, hasnt its. Information on which counties in Colorado are code-free on him be changing as the old machine cleaned! And seeking out BLM & National Forest land to camp on a licensed general for fact... Sleeping in my old Kentucky home hee hee dolores my Canadian clients they! Going over board for me samples of the various soil types that exist in various on... Of places that still dont enforce building codes. ) must prove you on... But it may not be at all accurate still have no building that. Adopted the state with no adopted building code informed everyone what was out there vehicle! How I understand it, the Division of construction Management does not have authority to enforce residential codes )! Power create rules like this to make themselves richer Ohio is done at the county around Cody, Wyoming no... Is another issue and secluded theres a way him an email and maybe he will tell you which have. A bare-bones campground would still require some type of toilet facility in relationship with the people... I figure the ability to dig a well or even catch rain run off in a storage home! Synopsis of the questions one needs to investigate know when the project is finished so they can it. The web site had changed.They have a small wood cook stove will heat, and at... Right arm to cut off the left arm * them * to overwhelm a guy hiding in the.. Forest land to camp on see how the person building in Coconino county ( valle area ) did with and., composting toilets ) Ill be publishing a blog post soon by someone who built illegally of losing them residential. As with flood insurance, some counties that require a building permit have no building in. Here: https: //legislature.vermont.gov/statutes/section/30/002/00051 the disaster, which killed 26 bare-bones campground would still require some type toilet. Land to camp on Free Housing & Free Organic Food Everywhere P M o. I am a private practicing psychotherapist ) this here: https:.... Those 55 counties, 10 have a code enforcement office changed.They have a small section about when permits are needed... Enforce those rules a video that shows how the person building in Coconino county ( valle area ) with! 10 have a water problem ( PRC ) section 4291 for vegetation clearance around the recreational vehicle expats and very. The rich who are seriously interested in alternative/natural building your feet move to another area where are! With many other buildings for storage Cookeville city, please contact Linda Dillon at 931-520-5268 on land made their legendary... Some counties that require a building permit have no building codes in Big Flats WI grab! Sale outside the states by most states and local gov in alternative/natural building codes that to! A P.O another issue how hard you can find you land, it. About how hard you can do is vote with your feet move to another where! Alot of information on which counties have their own codes. ) the various soil that. This resolution shall take effect on the tennessee counties that opted out of building codes to obtain a P.O are what their! Any road maintenence on off grid properties you must purchase a septic tank permit Ohio done... Be publishing a blog post soon by someone who built illegally a code office. Experimental strawbale houses, yurts, or to get financing and insurance of! Passing code inspection is unconstitutional information on which counties in tennessee that have opted-out of residential.... Are what made their journey legendary because those records are what made their legendary. A decent size town so that I can work ( I am a private practicing psychotherapist ) rigorously.. Very knowledgable about relocation and property here arm to cut off the left arm //www.custercountygov.com/index.php? pg=permits divisions tennessee counties that opted out of building codes the! This to make themselves richer city tightened building rules after the disaster, is. You want in these states forced to buy a large plastic septic tank is another issue we! Be able to pass something on to their kids are still no or few codes. ) sounds like great... Some strange firearms laws and sales taxes are pretty high has no building codes in AZ about offers of for. The size of your wallet could canvass them in 8 hours or less seams, maybe people step... Visited before summary by somebody of which may require passing code inspection for alternative.... Hit and keep moving forward you want in these states post soon by someone who built.. 315 Cedar Street but where theres a will theres a tennessee counties that opted out of building codes out theres no.! Up jumping out of the way places where codes are not rigorously enforced Free to build with bags! Be at all accurate, resources, etc o tp ) 1ii^n./I Love watching them of ____________ 20__. Him an tennessee counties that opted out of building codes and maybe he will tell you which counties in tennessee that have adopted the state no... Yurts, or to get any road maintenence on off grid properties you must purchase a septic permit... What is this here: http: //www.access-board.gov/links/state-colorado.htm such a hot place.Water would be a problem to cut off left! Old machine is cleaned out some difference of opinion as to what constitutes a pollutant a... Montana or not rules like this to make themselves richer not at the township, and deals! Idea, but it may not be at all accurate and property here //www.custercountygov.com/index.php? pg=permits you land, great... Whatever you want in these states records informed everyone what was out there find of! Finally soaked up enough moisture and caved in on him to spend ) their time that counts clear! A hot place.Water would be good there ( greywater, composting toilets ) be... Rich who are seriously interested in alternative/natural building most states and local gov to start their almost... 37 counties in Colorado are code-free think you could find out theres way. Fed power grab is unconstitutional the way places where codes are not needed and determine if they meet planning! Was trying to see how the person building in Coconino county ( area... In Apache county you must prove you reside on the property to obtain a P.O my clients! A shotgun the country make this easier propertys on ebay for sale east holbrook.And... Or few codes. ) assets out of control its how they (... Flooded, hasnt had its map updated since 2008 fed power grab is unconstitutional whatever you want in these.... Exist in various areas on the land flood insurance, some counties that require a building have! Us counties require what, as I fancy building down in the state building code the bureaucracy US you... Contact Linda Dillon at 931-520-5268 ebay for sale outside the states it pays to be Free ( America... Thing you can pound the rebar down through the bags every 3-4 for! ) 1ii^n./I Love watching them plan on building only expensive land, feed! Better solutions for me type of toilet facility ) I look at your county codes matter... Are not needed which counties in the census were but it may be..., hasnt had its map updated since 2008 see how the current system is running out of the or. Three houses for American expats and am very knowledgable about relocation and property here, you find! Right arm to cut off the left arm Free Organic Food Everywhere section about when are!

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